Discussion:
Is this list inactive?
Eduardo M. Bragatto
2004-06-18 22:01:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I'm a new member of this list and I didn't receive any messages since
my subscribe on it. Is this list dead?

Best regards,
Eduardo M. Bragatto.
Stephan Wehner
2004-06-18 23:33:49 UTC
Permalink
I subscribed to the list ten days ago and only saw one
question being asked and no other postings.

Stephan
Post by Eduardo M. Bragatto
Hi,
I'm a new member of this list and I didn't receive
any messages since
my subscribe on it. Is this list dead?
Best regards,
Eduardo M. Bragatto.
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Eduardo M. Bragatto
2004-06-19 01:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Ed,
The list is still active, the last message was Mon, June 14, 2004 11:23 am.
Thomas,

is there any place where I can find the history files of this list? Or
even the results from some paperwork already done with the information
discussed here?
I would like to get involved with the discussion proposed on the
website http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html.

Regards,
Eduardo M. Bragatto.
Charles Cazabon
2004-06-19 02:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eduardo M. Bragatto
is there any place where I can find the history files of this list?
Send a blank message to im2000-***@list.cr.yp.to, like it says in the headers
of each message you get.

Charles
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Thomas Schwinge
2004-06-19 15:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Cazabon
Post by Eduardo M. Bragatto
is there any place where I can find the history files of this list?
of each message you get.
So, you're instructing these people - who are willing to browse through
the archives before asking already answered questions again - to send
approx. 1500 messages to Dan's mail server to get 1500 messages back?

And Eduardo was definitely not the first one to inquire about archives
of Dan's mailing lists - such inquiries can be found all over his
"popular" lists.

If I had a persistent internet connection I'd setup archives for this
mailing list and the other ones which are not yet published somewhere
else.
Sadly I'm not able to do so.


Charles, I did not want to offend you - I just didn't like the answer
you gave to Eduardo.


Regards,
Thomas
Charles Cazabon
2004-06-19 16:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eduardo M. Bragatto
is there any place where I can find the history files of this list?
headers of each message you get.
So, you're instructing these people - who are willing to browse through the
archives before asking already answered questions again - to send approx.
1500 messages to Dan's mail server to get 1500 messages back?
If they like. I've done similar. The alternative is to Google for "im2000
list archive", which turns up at least one useful result in the top five:
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.mail.im2000

Charles
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GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.ca/~charlesc/software/
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Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2004-06-19 17:29:44 UTC
Permalink
CC> Send a blank message to im2000-***@list.cr.yp.to, like
CC> it says in the headers of each message you get.

TS> So, you're instructing these people - who are willing to
TS> browse through the archives before asking already answered
TS> questions again - to send approx. 1500 messages to Dan's
TS> mail server to get 1500 messages back?

Retrieving past messages from some server somewhere and reading them is
an unavoidable and integral part of browsing a mailing list archive.

seq 1 1592 | while read i
do
mail im2000-get.$***@lists.cr.yp.to < /dev/null
done

<URL:news://news.gmane.org./gmane.mail.im2000>
Bryan Campbell
2004-06-21 13:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Persistent Internet Connection . . .

Got one!

How much space do we need for these archives?

Bryan -
Post by Thomas Schwinge
Post by Charles Cazabon
Post by Eduardo M. Bragatto
is there any place where I can find the history files of this list?
of each message you get.
So, you're instructing these people - who are willing to browse through
the archives before asking already answered questions again - to send
approx. 1500 messages to Dan's mail server to get 1500 messages back?
And Eduardo was definitely not the first one to inquire about archives
of Dan's mailing lists - such inquiries can be found all over his
"popular" lists.
If I had a persistent internet connection I'd setup archives for this
mailing list and the other ones which are not yet published somewhere
else.
Sadly I'm not able to do so.
Charles, I did not want to offend you - I just didn't like the answer
you gave to Eduardo.
Regards,
Thomas
--
Bryan Campbell . . . ***@misn.com

STE-MISN 573-775-2111

Key fingerprint: 44AB 0A39 1F4D 0BBE E588 21A7 A4AA B08B AE01 4D39
Key: http://www.misn.com/~bbc/pgp.txt
i***@lets.do.it.with.psyc.pages.de
2004-06-19 07:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Eduardo M. Bragatto typeth:
| I would like to get involved with the discussion proposed on the
| website http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html.

Me too.. so if the master isn't in, why not get started?

Just recently I saw something about commercial instant messaging
systems going for server-based email.. Here is the article:

http://news.com.com/Was+that+IM+or+e-mail%3F/2100-1032_3-5238364.html?part=rss&tag=5238364&subj=news.1032.5

Let's discuss what we can do to have our IM2000 before other people
establish technically inferior solutions. Marketing is making this
happen far too often lately, the internet has become so non-idealistic. :(

What are the requirements we would expect from IM2K? I for one
wouldn't want to send out my newsletters by round robin anymore -
One copy to each recipient - I want multicast in there. I don't
mean IP Multicast, not limited to that, but generally the protocol
notion of distributing information to multiple recipients efficiently.

I send one notification to Brazil and my friend's server there
redistributes it to all other brazilian recipients. Or better.

Whereas when it comes to resending the notifications, -yes- as a fallback,
but I would primarily work with receiver-side storage of such notifications.
What would you add to the im2000 thoughts?
--
symlynX » psyc://***@symlynX.com » irc://ve.symlynX.com/PSYC
network chat technology since 1988 » http://psyc.pages.de
for a truly private chat » https://ve.symlynX.com:34443/LynX/
Sean Plaice
2004-06-19 11:44:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 09:38:29 +0200 (CEST),
Post by i***@lets.do.it.with.psyc.pages.de
Just recently I saw something about commercial instant messaging
http://news.com.com/Was+that+IM+or+e-mail%3F/2100-1032_3-5238364.html?part=rss&tag=5238364&subj=news.1032.5
That article from what I read was more about bridging IM,SMS,email,etc
then revamping the way Internet mail is implemented.
Post by i***@lets.do.it.with.psyc.pages.de
What are the requirements we would expect from IM2K? I for one
wouldn't want to send out my newsletters by round robin anymore -
One copy to each recipient - I want multicast in there. I don't
mean IP Multicast, not limited to that, but generally the protocol
notion of distributing information to multiple recipients efficiently.
I send one notification to Brazil and my friend's server there
redistributes it to all other brazilian recipients. Or better.
I don't see this being something that would be needed or advantageous
for im2000. You could implement this sort of system outside of im2000,
or SMTP. If you already know someone in Brazil with a mail server they
could just let you relay through their server. You would just need to
determine what address you would want to route through them.
--
Sean
Eduardo M. Bragatto
2004-06-19 15:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean Plaice
Post by i***@lets.do.it.with.psyc.pages.de
I send one notification to Brazil and my friend's server there
redistributes it to all other brazilian recipients. Or better.
I don't see this being something that would be needed or advantageous
for im2000. You could implement this sort of system outside of im2000,
or SMTP. If you already know someone in Brazil with a mail server they
could just let you relay through their server. You would just need to
determine what address you would want to route through them.
I'm with Sean. I don't think that's a problem with the protocols used
today. The biggest problem is already known by almost everyone involved
on this kind of discussion: the receiver's resources being used by
anyone who want to send a message.
If the receiver is paying, why not to spam their mailboxes?
Of course that authentication is important too, but I don't think
that's the major problem because if we're talking about rewrite the
internet mail protocols, then we are talking about a chance that we have
to implement this on those new protocols.

Best regards,
Eduardo M. Bragatto.
Marc Mengel
2004-06-21 14:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eduardo M. Bragatto
I'm with Sean. I don't think that's a problem with the protocols
used today. The biggest problem is already known by almost everyone
involved on this kind of discussion: the receiver's resources being used
by anyone who want to send a message.
I think a lot of the reason interest in IM2000 has dropped off is that the
*only* thing IM2000 accomplishes is to push the storage cost to the sender.

When the senders were *paying* for their sending systems, that was a
reasonable approach to curbing the problem.

Today, an increasingly large portion of the spam problem is virus-hijacked
systems which have become bulk-email zombies. What IM2000 would do in that
environment would be to shift the storage cost to these hijacked machines,
which isn't costing the *originators* of the spam anything. Thus as long as
we have a large number of internet connected machines which are easy to break
into, the spam-zombie machines will be out there in large numbers, and
approaches like IM2000 are unfortunately not going to make a big dent in the
problem.

Thats my $.02 on the issue.

On the other hand, there are a fair number of sharp individiuals on this list
who are at least thinking about these problems, so I keep listening in case
something that's at least another step in the right direction (which I think
the IM2000 concept is) comes up.

Marc
Charles Cazabon
2004-06-21 14:59:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Mengel
I think a lot of the reason interest in IM2000 has dropped off
Uh, excuse me? Who said interest in IM2000 has dropped off? Based on my
personal observations, it appears that interest now is higher than it has ever
been.

Note that "interest in IM2000" and "number of messages on
***@list.cr.yp.to" are most definitely not the same thing.

Charles
--
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GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.ca/~charlesc/software/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Campbell
2004-06-21 15:09:23 UTC
Permalink
O.K. -- That is true . . . BUT, If the zombies are only allowed to
relay a certain amount of mail per day through an authorized relay host,
and their network throughput / mailstorage capacity is the limiting
factor, then IM2000 is still a good idea.

The biggest problem that exists today is that anyone, can originate an
e-mail to any smtp server if that server is the MX for the target domain.

If all smtp clients are forced to use a local authorized relay with
capacity limits on originated smtp traffic, then a great deal of these
problems go away. It is just that most ISPs do not have the stomach for
it. It breaks RFC's. And, it is generally impolite.

But, what is more impolite, forcing the insertion of an authorized relay
host, or SPAM?

Let us just assume for the sake of the discussion that we are going to
transparently hi-jack every smtp session as it leaves our networks and
force it to an outbound queue/proxy for scanning and originating header
insertion. Don't give the smtp client, or subtended server, virus, or
worm the chance to send directly to ANY MX host. Force them to talk to
your server, or to not talk at all.

If their outbound smtp capacity is set to allow only a certain amount of
conversations, per minute, hour, day, or total bits of throughput, then
at least part of the problem is addressed . . . Not withstanding the
IM2000 concept of local outbound message storage. That is just the
icing on the cake.

As for the zombies . . . We can use the capacity limits to trigger
notifications to customers, turn off accounts, and study the smtp
flows. Yes, there will be alot of data.

Thoughts, rants, insults!?

Bryan -
Post by Marc Mengel
Post by Eduardo M. Bragatto
I'm with Sean. I don't think that's a problem with the protocols
used today. The biggest problem is already known by almost everyone
involved on this kind of discussion: the receiver's resources being
used by anyone who want to send a message.
I think a lot of the reason interest in IM2000 has dropped off is that the
*only* thing IM2000 accomplishes is to push the storage cost to the sender.
When the senders were *paying* for their sending systems, that was a
reasonable approach to curbing the problem.
Today, an increasingly large portion of the spam problem is
virus-hijacked systems which have become bulk-email zombies. What
IM2000 would do in that
environment would be to shift the storage cost to these hijacked machines,
which isn't costing the *originators* of the spam anything. Thus as long as
we have a large number of internet connected machines which are easy to break
into, the spam-zombie machines will be out there in large numbers, and
approaches like IM2000 are unfortunately not going to make a big dent in the
problem.
Thats my $.02 on the issue.
On the other hand, there are a fair number of sharp individiuals on this list
who are at least thinking about these problems, so I keep listening in case
something that's at least another step in the right direction (which I think
the IM2000 concept is) comes up.
Marc
--
Bryan Campbell . . . ***@misn.com

STE-MISN 573-775-2111

Key fingerprint: 44AB 0A39 1F4D 0BBE E588 21A7 A4AA B08B AE01 4D39
Key: http://www.misn.com/~bbc/pgp.txt
Stephan Wehner
2004-06-21 16:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Another possibility which occured to me while thinking
about Google API applications is to have an internet
scanner searching the Internet for phrases (Google
originally).

The email address becomes a phrase.

The email messages become web pages that contain the
phrase.

The inbox becomes the search results for the phrase.

When avoiding Google, several internet scanners can be
setup, so that one is not relying on a particular one.


Encryption is still possible.

Of course hijacked machines can also publish such
web-pages.

There is a delay introduced since potentially the
whole internet is scanned before "inboxes" are
updated. The scanners can allow a different route for
looking at updated pages.

This setup might not work out but maybe something
similar may be interesting.

I've set up an inbox with the phrase

"Eating therhubarb with a fork"

No spam so far :) First message took a week to
"deliver". googlealert.com sent me an email telling me
about the "new" message.

See you

Stephan



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Stephan Wehner
2004-06-21 17:14:49 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, the phrase was

"Eating the rhubarb with a fork"

(Space before rhubarb)
Post by Stephan Wehner
I've set up an inbox with the phrase
"Eating therhubarb with a fork"
No spam so far :) First message took a week to
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Marc Mengel
2004-06-21 18:25:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bryan Campbell
O.K. -- That is true . . . BUT, If the zombies are only allowed to
relay a certain amount of mail per day through an authorized relay host,
and their network throughput / mailstorage capacity is the limiting
factor, then IM2000 is still a good idea.
Not if there are sufficiently many zombies -- the way to thwart per-system
limits is to have *lots* of systems.
Post by Bryan Campbell
The biggest problem that exists today is that anyone, can originate an
e-mail to any smtp server if that server is the MX for the target domain.
I disagree. I think the fundamental problem is you can't determine who
the original sender of the email is, to the extent of being able to
fine them actual $$ if they are sending unsolicited email. I don't think
the problem will be fixed unless you have to put up an escrow fund with
a recognized bank that someone can collect SPAM complaint fine money from
in order to send email, and the bank would have a service where your
escrow fund is listed along with how many emails you've sent against that
fund in the last week. If there are too many emails outstanding to
be able to pay each recipient $5 out of the escrow fund you just
bounce their email. If you get an email, and you think its spam,
you have a week from when its received to collect the $5.
Post by Bryan Campbell
If all smtp clients are forced to use a local authorized relay with
capacity limits on originated smtp traffic, then a great deal of these
problems go away. It is just that most ISPs do not have the stomach for
it. It breaks RFC's. And, it is generally impolite.
But, what is more impolite, forcing the insertion of an authorized relay
host, or SPAM?
Okay, so you force me to use an outgoing proxy. If that proxy doesn't know
who I am, it will still deliver my email. It may throttle my bandwidth, or
limit my total email sent per host, but if I have enough hosts, it doesn't help.
Post by Bryan Campbell
Let us just assume for the sake of the discussion that we are going to
transparently hi-jack every smtp session as it leaves our networks and
force it to an outbound queue/proxy for scanning and originating header
insertion. Don't give the smtp client, or subtended server, virus, or
worm the chance to send directly to ANY MX host. Force them to talk to
your server, or to not talk at all.
If their outbound smtp capacity is set to allow only a certain amount of
conversations, per minute, hour, day, or total bits of throughput, then
at least part of the problem is addressed . . . Not withstanding the
IM2000 concept of local outbound message storage. That is just the
icing on the cake.
Okay, but what is that throughput limit going to be? 100 emails a day? 50?
If I hijack 20,000 zombie nodes, I can still send a million spams a day...
One Polish group of hackers recently claimed some 450,000 infected PC's were
under their control.
(see http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/43240)
So (if they are to be belived) they can send 4.5 million spams a day at only
10 messages per host.

According to MessageLabs and Sandvine, 66-70% of current spam is coming from
hijacked systems.
Post by Bryan Campbell
As for the zombies . . . We can use the capacity limits to trigger
notifications to customers, turn off accounts, and study the smtp
flows. Yes, there will be alot of data.
But then we have a rate problem. How fast can they infect new machines
versus how fast we can detect and block them.

Consider a worm that infects two other machines, picked at random, then sends
50 emails, then leaves, leaving no particular evidence on the system that it
had been there. Repeated waves of such a worm could be sent through the
internet, using vulnerabilities that vendors haven't patched yet, and no
amount of per-system email limits would stop it sending as many spam messages
as it wanted.

And of course, the poor people whose PCs were used wouldn't be able to send
any more email for a few days, because their send limits were mysteriously
reached.

Marc
Rickard Armiento
2004-06-23 12:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Mengel
I think the fundamental problem is you can't determine who
the original sender of the email is, to the extent of being able to
fine them actual $$ if they are sending unsolicited email. I don't think
the problem will be fixed unless you have to put up an escrow fund with
a recognized bank that someone can collect SPAM complaint fine money from
in order to send email, and the bank would have a service where your
escrow fund is listed along with how many emails you've sent against that
fund in the last week. If there are too many emails outstanding to
be able to pay each recipient $5 out of the escrow fund you just
bounce their email. If you get an email, and you think its spam,
you have a week from when its received to collect the $5.
This has similarities to an idea I mailed to this list some time ago;
"Macro payments through domain names?" (19 Jan). In your language,
that suggestion was to use top-level domain names as the "escrow
cost". In the event of someone receiving a spam email, he would put
the top-level domain on a permanent blacklist. For the sender of the
spam email to be able to continue sending emails, he would have to
pay for a new top-level domain name. The "authentication" could be
implemented as a dns lookup of the domain name.

The primary differences from your suggestion is that with domain
names, the recipient don't get the money. This I feel is an
improvment, since it avoids an incentive for scam-artists to attempt
to get people to send them emails that they can report as spam just
to get the money.

Due to rather recent figures,
http://rejo.zenger.nl/abuse/1085493870.php
a spamrun of 272,455 spam emails gave orders worth about $22.
With bulk domain names at ~$5, at this rate we would have to
get them blacklisted as soon as they send 61,921 spams, or
when about 29,545 persons have opened and "read" the spam.

This does not sound impossible to me. Of course, if the costs turn
out to not be high enough, one could require more than one
blacklistable domain name to increase the "escrow".

//Rickard

Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2004-06-19 17:18:48 UTC
Permalink
i> I for one wouldn't want to send out my newsletters by
i> round robin anymore

<URL:http://homepages.tesco.net./~J.deBoynePollard/Proposals/IM2000/CaseStudies/public-mailing-list.html>
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2004-06-19 08:48:13 UTC
Permalink
EMB> I'm a new member of this list [...]

Then you will learn a lot by reading the archives and the various web sites.

<URL:news://news.gmane.org./gmane.mail.im2000>
<URL:http://copilotconsulting.com./mail-archives/im2000.2001/>
<URL:http://homepages.tesco.net./~J.deBoynePollard/Proposals/IM2000/>
<URL:http://rjbs.manxome.org./projects/im2000/>
<URL:http://magma.com.ni./~jorge/im2000/fga.html>
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